[Peace-discussion] Re: [usgp-dx] Human rights in Iran
lazyangels@sbcglobal.net
lazyangels@sbcglobal.net
Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:35:27 -0400
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Since I assume you don't have access to it, I have forwarded your
message to the MIGreens SCC list. Please see my responses to you below.
Scott McLarty wrote:
> Dear Michelle
>
> (1) The fact that the case of the two hanged teenagers was a
> misreport that can be traced to US propaganda doesn't invalidate the
> numerous other reports of human rights abuses, especially against
> gay people, in Iran. Are you suggesting that, because that case was
> a fabrication, then all the other reports (including personal
> accounts from gay Iranians, such as the one I described) are also
> untrue?
No, Scott, I never suggested for one moment that "all the other reports"
are false and I have no idea where you would get such an idea. If you
will reread my message, I think it will be clear to you that I accepted
the concerns of your Iranian friend at face value. For the record, I'm
not sure the "case of the two hanged teenagers" can be traced to the US
government. Peter Tatchell in the UK seems have been the main instigator
of the blowup, which was then picked up by Doug Ireland, Andrew
sullivan, HRC, et al. It would not be precedented for some of them to be
in the employ of the US gov't. but at this point I have no evidence for
that.
> (2) Why do you assume that, because I'm willing to condemn systematic
> Iranian abuses of human rights, that I'm willing to ignore such
> abuses in the US? I was active in ACT UP and Queer Nation in
> Cincinnati and then DC, and I helped document cases of discrimination
> & violence against gay people, in defense of human rights ordinances
> that covered sexual orientation. It's not necessary to write a
> manifesto describing and denouncing abuses in the US every time I
> forward an article on abuses in Iran or Russia or anywhere else.
There's no need to get so defensive, Scott. I made no assumption that
you're "willing to ignore ... abuses in the US." Cognizant of the fact
that others are reading our exchange, I wanted to drive home the point
that Americans live in a glass house when it comes to human rights.
> The insinuation that anyone who's concerned about antigay abuses in
> Iran & Russia therefore excuses such abuses in the US is dishonest.
In the correspondence I have seen no one has made any such insinuation.
> It's like saying that, if I forward a story about China's disregard
> for the threat of global warming, it means I endorse Bush's inaction
> & lies on climate change.
>
> (3) The issue here isn't whether the US government has spread
> misinformation about the USSR or modern Russia or Iran. We already
> know that that's the case, from the early 20th century up until now.
>
> The issue here is whether some people on the left are willing to
> overlook politically inconvenient facts, as US leftists did in regard
> to Stalin up until 1957. (George Orwell wrote some excellent essays
> on this topic.) We're making the same mistake if we choose to
> ignore or deny systematic human rights abuses in Iran, Russia, etc.
> because we think the facts might interfere with our opposition to
> imperial US policies.
I don't agree with your framing of the issue. This is a discussion among
Greens and I don't personally know of any who want to "ignore or deny
systematic human rights abuses in Iran, Russia, etc." Once again, you
are flailing away at straw men. The issue is whether we will join in
questionable feeding frenzies that often have little to do with human
rights but which further imperial designs. The GPUS should never be a
participant in the systematic abuse of human rights discourse--something
which has been well documented by Chomsky, Herman, Chandler, and others.
> For a party that's dedicated to global human rights, it is certainly
> not "an abuse of human rights discourse" to recognize violations in
> the throughout the world as well as in the US. On the contrary,
> it's our obligation.
Scott, you've misquoted me. Nowhere did I claim or insinuate that
"recognizing violations ... throughout the world" is "an abuse of human
rights discourse." The latter is not even a phrase I used. I referred to
"the systematic abuse of human rights discourse" by the US government--a
reality which you, apparently, do not deny.
The issue is simple: We live in the heart of a demonstrably violent and
abusive empire. The empire has openly targetted Iran for possible attack
and routinely trumpets the injustices and faults of the regime, real and
imagined, in order to build the case for some kind of hostile action. In
such a context, it is simply unconscionable for our party to lend any
support whatsoever to such a campaign, which if it results in war (or
just sanctions), will likely lead to deaths and other human rights
violations that will make anything the Iranian governement has done to
its LGBT citizens pale in comparision. That doesn't mean we ignore
anything or fail to recognize that Iran has serious human rights issues
but it does mean that we don't jump on every bandwagon that comes by,
esp. when the bandwagon is led by the likes of Clinton, Bush, or their
minions. Our main obligation to "global human rights" is stop this
American death machine and not to do anything that enables it.
Michelle J. Kinnucan
angels@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> >> From: Scott McLarty <scottmclarty@yahoo.com>
> > Date: June 7, 2007
> >> 11:31:59 AM GMT-04:00 To: USGP Discussion
> >> <natlcomaffairs@green.gpus.org> Subject: Re:
> > [usgp-dx] Human rights
> >> in Iran (Re: Re: Accounts of
> > state-sanctioned anti-gay
> >>> Are they real? As real as the WMDs in Iraq
> > in 2003?
> >> My own knowledge of antigay persecution in
> > Iran doesn't just come
> >> from reading articles & web sites written by
> > journalists like Doug
> >> Ireland (who's hardly a patsy for US
> > official propaganda).
> >
> > The fact, Scott, is that human rights abuses are commonly
> > fabricated or distorted in the service of empire. I take your
> > conspicuous silence on the case of the two Iranian teens executed
> > in 2005, which I mentioned, as tacit acknowledgment of that.
> > Interested folks can read Richard Kim's expose of this affair in
> > "Witnesses to an Execution"
> > <http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050815/kim/3> in The Nation.
> > Suffice it to say, Doug Ireland was, by no means, the only person
> > to stoke or join in this particular feeding frenzy.
> >
> >> A few years ago I helped an openly gay
> > Iranian friend of mine find
> >> some legal assistance when he was informed
> > that his stay in the US
> >> was over and he would have to return to Iran
> > in a few months.
> >> He was quite realistic, nearly to the point
> > of hysteria, about the
> >> fate that awaited him on his arrival. He
> > knew of gay men in Iran who
> >> had suffered rejection from their families,
> > police beatings, and
> >> jail. (He managed to get some kind of
> > asylum in the US and now lives
> >> in Chicago.) His story was consistent with
> > accounts I've heard and
> >> read by other gay Iranians.
> > " ... rejection from their families, police beatings, and jail,"
> > Scott? All unheard of in the ol' enlightened US of A, eh?
> > Certainly, such treatment is comparatively rare for American LGBT
> > people from the same, undoubtedly, elevated social stratum as your
> > Iranian friend but, speaking as one who was an activist and board
> > member at a local LGBT community center for several years, I can
> > tell you that the experience of many poor and working-class LGBT
> > people in the US is not so different from what your friend feared
> > upon his return to Iran. Just today, The Rochester Democrat and
> > Chronicle reported on allegation that police arrested the victims
> > of a gay-bashing incident and let the perps go free. Also, prison
> > rape is common and unofficially sanctioned in the US. As the ACLU
> > noted in the case of Roderick Johnson
> >
> <http://www.aclu.org/prison/conditions/19959prs20050916.html>,
> > "Gay prisoners ... are highly vulnerable to rape and exploitation
> > perpetrated by prison gangs." True, fours years ago, the US Supreme
> > Court, by a 6-3 decision, did finally invalidate "homosexual
> > sodomy" laws, which obviously places the US light-years ahead of
> > Iran (sarcasm intended).
> >
> >> Before Stalin died, a lot of people on the
> > left in the US preferred
> >> to discount reports of his atrocities as
> > Western propaganda, until
> >> the USSR itself revealed the extent of
> > Stalin's crimes in 1957. The
> >> revelations caused a crisis in US socialist
> > circles and leftist
> >> parties lost a lot of membership.
> > You have selected an interesting case, Scott. The American cover up
> > of Soviet crimes under Stalin was most pronounced and effective
> > when the USSR was an American ally, especially before and after the
> > German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact of 1939, which lasted less than
> > two years. Thus, for example, when it was revealed that in 1940
> > the Soviets had massacred thousands of Poles in the Katyn Forest
> > the Polish people were betrayed by Churchill and Roosevelt, the
> > matter was covered up and blame was shifted onto the official
> > enemy--Nazi Germany. So, your example actually highlights the
> > selective and dishonest manipulation of atrocities and human rights
> > abuses by the American government.
> >
> >> Regardless of what kind of response Greens
> > should have towards the
> >> systematic abuse of human rights in places
> > like Iran and Russia, we
> >> should not be so dishonest as to sweep it
> > under a rug.
> >
> > You are flailing at straw men, Scott. No one in the GPUS has even
> > remotely suggested that "the systematic abuse of human rights in
> > places like Iran and Russia" should be swept under a rug. What has
> > been suggested is that the GPUS should not be a participant in the
> > systematic abuse of human rights discourse.
> >
> > Michelle J. Kinnucan GPMI, GPAX
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Since I assume you don't have access to it, I have forwarded your
message to the MIGreens SCC list. Please see my responses to you below.<br>
<br>
Scott McLarty wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> Dear Michelle<br>
> <br>
> (1) The fact that the case of the two hanged teenagers was a <br>
> misreport that can be traced to US propaganda doesn't invalidate
the<br>
> numerous other reports of human rights abuses, especially against<br>
> gay people, in Iran. Are you suggesting that, because that case
was<br>
> a fabrication, then all the other reports (including personal<br>
> accounts from gay Iranians, such as the one I described) are also<br>
> untrue?</span><br>
<br>
No, Scott, I never suggested for one moment that "all the other
reports" are false and I have no idea where you would get such an idea.
If you will reread my message, I think it will be clear to you that I
accepted the concerns of your Iranian friend at face value. For the
record, I'm not sure the "case of the two hanged teenagers" can be
traced to the US government. Peter Tatchell in the UK seems have been
the main instigator of the blowup, which was then picked up by Doug
Ireland, Andrew sullivan, HRC, et al. It would not be precedented for
some of them to be in the employ of the US gov't. but at this point I
have no evidence for that.<br>
<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> (2) Why do you assume that,
because I'm willing to condemn systematic<br>
> Iranian abuses of human rights, that I'm willing to ignore such <br>
> abuses in the US? I was active in ACT UP and Queer Nation in <br>
> Cincinnati and then DC, and I helped document cases of
discrimination<br>
> & violence against gay people, in defense of human rights
ordinances<br>
> that covered sexual orientation. It's not necessary to write a <br>
> manifesto describing and denouncing abuses in the US every time I <br>
> forward an article on abuses in Iran or Russia or anywhere else.</span><br>
<br>
There's no need to get so defensive, Scott. I made no assumption that
you're "willing to ignore ... abuses in the US." Cognizant of the fact
that others are reading our exchange, I wanted to drive home the point
that Americans live in a glass house when it comes to human rights.<br>
<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> The insinuation that anyone who's
concerned about antigay abuses in <br>
> Iran & Russia therefore excuses such abuses in the US is
dishonest.</span><br>
<br>
In the correspondence I have seen no one has made any such insinuation.<br>
<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> It's like saying that, if I
forward a story about China's disregard <br>
> for the threat of global warming, it means I endorse Bush's
inaction<br>
> & lies on climate change.<br>
> <br>
> (3) The issue here isn't whether the US government has spread <br>
> misinformation about the USSR or modern Russia or Iran. We
already <br>
> know that that's the case, from the early 20th century up until
now.<br>
> <br>
> The issue here is whether some people on the left are willing to <br>
> overlook politically inconvenient facts, as US leftists did in
regard<br>
> to Stalin up until 1957. (George Orwell wrote some excellent
essays<br>
> on this topic.) We're making the same mistake if we choose to <br>
> ignore or deny systematic human rights abuses in Iran, Russia,
etc. <br>
> because we think the facts might interfere with our opposition to <br>
> imperial US policies.</span><br>
<br>
I don't agree with your framing of the issue. This is a discussion
among Greens and I don't personally know of any who want to "ignore or
deny systematic human rights abuses in Iran, Russia, etc." Once again,
you are flailing away at straw men. The issue is whether we will join
in questionable feeding frenzies that often have little to do with
human rights but which further imperial designs. The GPUS should never
be a participant in the systematic abuse of human rights
discourse--something which has been well documented by Chomsky, Herman,
Chandler, and others.<br>
<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> For a party that's dedicated to
global human rights, it is certainly<br>
> not "an abuse of human rights discourse" to recognize violations
in<br>
> the throughout the world as well as in the US. On the contrary,<br>
> it's our obligation.</span><br>
<br>
Scott, you've misquoted me. Nowhere did I claim or insinuate that
"recognizing violations ... throughout the world" is "an abuse of human
rights discourse." The latter is not even a phrase I used. I referred
to "the systematic abuse of human rights discourse" by the US
government--a reality which you, apparently, do not deny.<br>
<br>
The issue is simple: We live in the heart of a demonstrably violent and
abusive empire. The empire has openly targetted Iran for possible
attack and routinely trumpets the injustices and faults of the regime,
real and imagined, in order to build the case for some kind of hostile
action. In such a context, it is simply unconscionable for our party to
lend any support whatsoever to such a campaign, which if it results in
war (or just sanctions), will likely lead to deaths and other human
rights violations that will make anything the Iranian governement has
done to its LGBT citizens pale in comparision. That doesn't mean we
ignore anything or fail to recognize that Iran has serious human rights
issues but it does mean that we don't jump on every bandwagon that
comes by, esp. when the bandwagon is led by the likes of Clinton, Bush,
or their minions. Our main obligation to "<span
style="white-space: pre;">global human rights" is stop this American
death machine and not to do anything that enables it.<br>
<br>
Michelle J. Kinnucan<br>
</span><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:angels@sbcglobal.net">angels@sbcglobal.net</a> wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> <br>
>>> From: Scott McLarty <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:scottmclarty@yahoo.com"><scottmclarty@yahoo.com></a><br>
>> Date: June 7, 2007<br>
>>> 11:31:59 AM GMT-04:00 To: USGP Discussion <br>
>>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:natlcomaffairs@green.gpus.org"><natlcomaffairs@green.gpus.org></a> Subject: Re:<br>
>> [usgp-dx] Human rights<br>
>>> in Iran (Re: Re: Accounts of<br>
>> state-sanctioned anti-gay<br>
>>>> Are they real? As real as the WMDs in Iraq<br>
>> in 2003?<br>
>>> My own knowledge of antigay persecution in<br>
>> Iran doesn't just come<br>
>>> from reading articles & web sites written by<br>
>> journalists like Doug<br>
>>> Ireland (who's hardly a patsy for US<br>
>> official propaganda).<br>
>> <br>
>> The fact, Scott, is that human rights abuses are commonly <br>
>> fabricated or distorted in the service of empire. I take your <br>
>> conspicuous silence on the case of the two Iranian teens
executed <br>
>> in 2005, which I mentioned, as tacit acknowledgment of that. <br>
>> Interested folks can read Richard Kim's expose of this affair
in <br>
>> "Witnesses to an Execution" <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050815/kim/3"><http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050815/kim/3></a> in The
Nation. <br>
>> Suffice it to say, Doug Ireland was, by no means, the only
person <br>
>> to stoke or join in this particular feeding frenzy.<br>
>> <br>
>>> A few years ago I helped an openly gay<br>
>> Iranian friend of mine find<br>
>>> some legal assistance when he was informed<br>
>> that his stay in the US<br>
>>> was over and he would have to return to Iran<br>
>> in a few months.<br>
>>> He was quite realistic, nearly to the point<br>
>> of hysteria, about the<br>
>>> fate that awaited him on his arrival. He<br>
>> knew of gay men in Iran who<br>
>>> had suffered rejection from their families,<br>
>> police beatings, and<br>
>>> jail. (He managed to get some kind of<br>
>> asylum in the US and now lives<br>
>>> in Chicago.) His story was consistent with<br>
>> accounts I've heard and<br>
>>> read by other gay Iranians.<br>
>> " ... rejection from their families, police beatings, and
jail," <br>
>> Scott? All unheard of in the ol' enlightened US of A, eh? <br>
>> Certainly, such treatment is comparatively rare for American
LGBT <br>
>> people from the same, undoubtedly, elevated social stratum as
your <br>
>> Iranian friend but, speaking as one who was an activist and
board <br>
>> member at a local LGBT community center for several years, I
can <br>
>> tell you that the experience of many poor and working-class
LGBT <br>
>> people in the US is not so different from what your friend
feared <br>
>> upon his return to Iran. Just today, The Rochester Democrat
and <br>
>> Chronicle reported on allegation that police arrested the
victims <br>
>> of a gay-bashing incident and let the perps go free. Also,
prison <br>
>> rape is common and unofficially sanctioned in the US. As the
ACLU <br>
>> noted in the case of Roderick Johnson<br>
>> <br>
>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.aclu.org/prison/conditions/19959prs20050916.html"><http://www.aclu.org/prison/conditions/19959prs20050916.html></a>,<br>
>> "Gay prisoners ... are highly vulnerable to rape and
exploitation <br>
>> perpetrated by prison gangs." True, fours years ago, the US
Supreme<br>
>> Court, by a 6-3 decision, did finally invalidate "homosexual <br>
>> sodomy" laws, which obviously places the US light-years ahead
of <br>
>> Iran (sarcasm intended).<br>
>> <br>
>>> Before Stalin died, a lot of people on the<br>
>> left in the US preferred<br>
>>> to discount reports of his atrocities as<br>
>> Western propaganda, until<br>
>>> the USSR itself revealed the extent of<br>
>> Stalin's crimes in 1957. The<br>
>>> revelations caused a crisis in US socialist<br>
>> circles and leftist<br>
>>> parties lost a lot of membership.<br>
>> You have selected an interesting case, Scott. The American
cover up<br>
>> of Soviet crimes under Stalin was most pronounced and
effective <br>
>> when the USSR was an American ally, especially before and
after the<br>
>> German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact of 1939, which lasted less
than<br>
>> two years. Thus, for example, when it was revealed that in
1940 <br>
>> the Soviets had massacred thousands of Poles in the Katyn
Forest <br>
>> the Polish people were betrayed by Churchill and Roosevelt,
the <br>
>> matter was covered up and blame was shifted onto the official <br>
>> enemy--Nazi Germany. So, your example actually highlights the <br>
>> selective and dishonest manipulation of atrocities and human
rights<br>
>> abuses by the American government.<br>
>> <br>
>>> Regardless of what kind of response Greens<br>
>> should have towards the<br>
>>> systematic abuse of human rights in places<br>
>> like Iran and Russia, we<br>
>>> should not be so dishonest as to sweep it<br>
>> under a rug.<br>
>> <br>
>> You are flailing at straw men, Scott. No one in the GPUS has
even <br>
>> remotely suggested that "the systematic abuse of human rights
in <br>
>> places like Iran and Russia" should be swept under a rug. What
has<br>
>> been suggested is that the GPUS should not be a participant
in the<br>
>> systematic abuse of human rights discourse.<br>
>> <br>
>> Michelle J. Kinnucan GPMI, GPAX</span><br>
<br>
<br>
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