[Peace-discussion] Re: [GPUS-PAX] Democrats lack the guts- Expose of the Dems by one of our own
Joni LeViness
myths16@cox.net
Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:50:32 -0500
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Well said Michael!
What would be great is if the gp gains enough momentum that those dragging
their feet cuz this one or that one is not "Green" enough, will barely
register on the radar.
ABB made me nauseous in 03 on up and still does!
Peace and Growth,
joni
_____
From: peace-discussion-admin@lists.gp-us.org
[mailto:peace-discussion-admin@lists.gp-us.org] On Behalf Of John Atkeison
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:08 PM
To: chicoverde@cox.net; GPAX-DX
Subject: Re: [Peace-discussion] Re: [GPUS-PAX] Democrats lack the guts-
Expose of the Dems by one of our own
wow.
Actual political discussion- that's great!
(and I am not being a smart ass!)
At 10:08 PM 6/20/2007, Michael Canney wrote:
Dear GPAXers:
I find it a shame that some Greens expend so much energy attacking other
Greens, with whom they happen to disagree on a narrow philosophical point.
Tony's ongoing vendetta against Pat LaMarche over the so-called "safe
states" issue in the 2004 presidential election is counterproductive to
building this party and inconsistent with Green Values. It is time to bury
the hatchet on this one.
Pat LaMarche has done as much as anyone to build the Green Party over the
past few years, and perhaps Maine has something to teach the rest of us
about party building, considering they have the highest percentage of voters
registered Green in the country, as well as more than their share of elected
officials.
Tony says, "The results of the 2004 election speak for themselves.
Safe-states and worse was an electoral disaster for this party. It severely
"undermined" our party. It almost "destroyed" us, but for the majority Nader
supporters among us."
He has a right to his opinion, but most Greens are weary of hearing it, and
there is little evidence to substantiate it. I agree with many of Tony's
political ideas, but I find that his historical account of the Greens
presents a narrow, sectarian perspective of the party. We need to be about
building principled unity among Greens, not promoting factionalism and
polarization.
Some Greens - including staunch Nader supporters - believe Ralph Nader
miscalculated and made a strategic error in deciding to run as an
independent in 2004, and that his decision had the unintentional result of
doing tremendous damage to the Green Party, not just in the election but in
the internal divisions that were generated. Here are the 2004 national vote
totals and the campaign money that was spent in getting them. You do the
math:
Ralph Nader 463,653 votes, $4,567,299
David Cobb 119,859 votes, $496,658
To the extent that David Cobb or Pat LaMarche embraced a "safe states"
strategy in 2004 I disagreed with them, but from what I saw of their
campaign they were out in the communities talking up the Green Party at
every opportunity. I argued against the ABB and safe states positions, but I
also disagreed with the Nader supporters who viciously attacked
Cobb-LaMarche and their supporters.
I was one of Nader's Florida Electors in 2000 (one of 27 who would go to the
Electoral College if my candidate won) and worked hard to help Nader win
10,000 votes in Pinellas County, where there were about 250 registered
Greens at the time. We got almost 100,000 total in Florida. In 2004, ABBers
were unfortunately the majority among Greens in Florida. Many had bitter
memories of 2000 and they held their noses and voted for Kerry. In 2004,
Nader got 1/3 of the votes in Florida that he got in 2000.
In 2004 I wrote to Nader and said I would support him again if he ran as a
Green, but that I intended to support the GP nominee regardless. I urged him
to seek the nomination. He chose not to, and in 2004 I was one of David
Cobb's Florida Electors. I supported Nader's ballot access battles, but when
Nader supporters sought to block ballot access to our GP nominee, even in
states where they had a ballot line for Nader (they tried and failed in
Florida), I opposed them.
2004 was a difficult year for Greens. Let's learn from our mistakes and move
on. Pat LaMarche is not the enemy, and if she and David Cobb are covert
moles working for the Democratic Party (as some have claimed) I sure hope
they will send us more, because we need all the help we can get.
To Tony I'd like to say: Sometimes we need to "respect diversity" and love
one another, and accept that we will not always agree on everything. Many of
the ABBers with whom I argued with in 2004 are coming back around, and they
are beginning to sound more like Cindy Sheehan when talking about the
Democrats running for president.
Toward Green unity,
Michael Canney
Florida
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [GPUS-PAX] Democrats lack the guts- Expose of the Dems
by one of our own
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:27:32 +0000
From: a.gronowicz@att.net
Reply-To: peace@lists.gp-us.org
To: peace@lists.gp-us.org
The facts as cited in numerous newspaper articles quoting La Marche speak
for themselves.
Were they all "misquoting"?
In violation of the rules,I was removed from ONE committee when I persisted
at the time of the 2004 campaign in pointing out how our anti-war
independent position was being undermined by her pro-Kerry statements. I was
quickly reinstated.
I was just re-elected to that committee-- the International Committee.
The results of the 2004 election speak for themselves. Safe-states and
worse was an electoral disaster for this party. It severely "undermined"
our party. It almost "destroyed" us, but for the majority Nader supporters
among us.
The venom comes from you who use words such as "trash".
Tony
P.S. And why quote from John Wayne, a war-monger? Why not Mark Twain, an
anti-imperialist?
-------------- Original message from "John Atkeison"
<john@atkeison.org>: --------------
Tony has been removed from the email list of other committees for
carrying on his personal vendetta against Pat and disrupting work by
doing so. Maybe it is time for a "time out" here as well.
Just one comment so the trash does not go unchallenged. How many of
us have spoken with a journalist only to find that what we said was
distorted? I happened to me about a year ago when I was the manager
of the Berg for Congress campaign. Then it gets picked up by other
outlets owned by the same people, and god help you if it is a big
one like Gannett or Associated Press! So, who am *I* gonna believe-
the Green who is bustin their butt for us and has integrity and
dedication, or the corporate media that we all bash for good reason?
Pat and the Maine Greens have built the GP with the largest per
capita Green registration in the country-- not NY, not CA, but
Maine. She is the public face of that Party. Why would someone want
to attack her and be so venomous?
Why are we are allowing a few in our midst to undermine and destroy
us? It has to stop.
John
_______________________________________________
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Peace-discussion@lists.gp-us.org
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D562432418-22062007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Well said Michael!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D562432418-22062007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>What would be great is if the gp gains enough =
momentum that=20
those dragging their feet cuz this one or that one is not "Green" =
enough, will=20
barely register on the radar.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D562432418-22062007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>ABB made me nauseous in 03 on up and still=20
does!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D562432418-22062007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Peace and Growth,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D562432418-22062007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>joni</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> =
peace-discussion-admin@lists.gp-us.org=20
[mailto:peace-discussion-admin@lists.gp-us.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John =
Atkeison<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
chicoverde@cox.net; GPAX-DX<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Peace-discussion] =
Re:=20
[GPUS-PAX] Democrats lack the guts- Expose of the Dems by one of our=20
own<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>wow.<BR>Actual political discussion- that's =
<I>great!<BR></I>(and I=20
am not being a smart ass!)<BR><BR>At 10:08 PM 6/20/2007, Michael Canney=20
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">Dear GPAXers:<BR><BR>I =
find it a=20
shame that some Greens expend so much energy attacking other Greens, =
with whom=20
they happen to disagree on a narrow philosophical point. Tony's =
ongoing=20
vendetta against Pat LaMarche over the so-called "safe states" issue =
in the=20
2004 presidential election is counterproductive to building this party =
and=20
inconsistent with Green Values. It is time to bury the hatchet on this =
one.<BR><BR>Pat LaMarche has done as much as anyone to build the Green =
Party=20
over the past few years, and perhaps Maine has something to teach the =
rest of=20
us about party building, considering they have the highest percentage =
of=20
voters registered Green in the country, as well as more than their =
share of=20
elected officials.<BR><BR>Tony says, "The results of the 2004 election =
speak=20
for themselves. Safe-states and worse was an electoral disaster for =
this=20
party. It severely "undermined" our party. It almost "destroyed" =
us, but=20
for the majority Nader supporters among us."<BR><BR>He has a right to =
his=20
opinion, but most Greens are weary of hearing it, and there is little =
evidence=20
to substantiate it. I agree with many of Tony's political ideas, but I =
find=20
that his historical account of the Greens presents a narrow, sectarian =
perspective of the party. We need to be about building principled =
unity among=20
Greens, not promoting factionalism and polarization.<BR><BR>Some =
Greens -=20
including staunch Nader supporters - believe Ralph Nader miscalculated =
and=20
made a strategic error in deciding to run as an independent in 2004, =
and that=20
his decision had the unintentional result of doing tremendous damage =
to the=20
Green Party, not just in the election but in the internal divisions =
that were=20
generated. Here are the 2004 national vote totals and the campaign =
money that=20
was spent in getting them. You do the math:<BR><BR> Ralph =
Nader =20
463,653 votes, $4,567,299<BR> David Cobb =
119,859=20
votes, $496,658<BR><BR>To the extent that David Cobb or Pat =
LaMarche=20
embraced a "safe states" strategy in 2004 I disagreed with them, but =
from what=20
I saw of their campaign they were out in the communities talking up =
the Green=20
Party at every opportunity. I argued against the ABB and safe states=20
positions, but I also disagreed with the Nader supporters who =
viciously=20
attacked Cobb-LaMarche and their supporters.<BR><BR>I was one of =
Nader's=20
Florida Electors in 2000 (one of 27 who would go to the Electoral =
College if=20
my candidate won) and worked hard to help Nader win 10,000 votes in =
Pinellas=20
County, where there were about 250 registered Greens at the time. We =
got=20
almost 100,000 total in Florida. In 2004, ABBers were unfortunately =
the=20
majority among Greens in Florida. Many had bitter memories of 2000 and =
they=20
held their noses and voted for Kerry. In 2004, Nader got 1/3 of the =
votes in=20
Florida that he got in 2000.<BR><BR>In 2004 I wrote to Nader and said =
I would=20
support him again if he ran as a Green, but that I intended to support =
the GP=20
nominee regardless. I urged him to seek the nomination. He chose not =
to, and=20
in 2004 I was one of David Cobb's Florida Electors. I supported =
Nader's ballot=20
access battles, but when Nader supporters sought to block ballot =
access to our=20
GP nominee, even in states where they had a ballot line for Nader =
(they tried=20
and failed in Florida), I opposed them.<BR><BR>2004 was a difficult =
year for=20
Greens. Let's learn from our mistakes and move on. Pat LaMarche is not =
the=20
enemy, and if she and David Cobb are covert moles working for the =
Democratic=20
Party (as some have claimed) I sure hope they will send us more, =
because we=20
need all the help we can get.<BR><BR>To Tony I'd like to say: =
Sometimes we=20
need to "respect diversity" and love one another, and accept that we =
will not=20
always agree on everything. Many of the ABBers with whom I argued with =
in 2004=20
are coming back around, and they are beginning to sound more like =
Cindy=20
Sheehan when talking about the Democrats running for =
president.<BR><BR>Toward=20
Green unity,<BR><BR>Michael Canney<BR>Florida<BR><BR><BR>-------- =
Original=20
Message --------<BR>Subject:=20
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Re: =
[GPUS-PAX]=20
Democrats lack the guts- Expose of the Dems by one of our own<BR>Date: =
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:27:32 +0000<BR>From:=20
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>a.gronowicz@att.net<BR>Reply-To:=20
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>=20
peace@lists.gp-us.org<BR>To:=20
=
<X-TAB> </X-TAB>peace@lists.gp-us.org<BR><BR><BR>T=
he=20
facts as cited in numerous newspaper articles quoting La Marche speak =
for=20
themselves. <BR>Were they all "misquoting"?<BR><BR>In violation of the =
rules,I=20
was removed from ONE committee when I persisted at the time of the =
2004=20
campaign in pointing out how our anti-war independent position was =
being=20
undermined by her pro-Kerry statements. I was quickly reinstated.<BR>I =
was=20
just re-elected to that committee-- the International Committee. =
<BR>The=20
results of the 2004 election speak for themselves. Safe-states =
and worse=20
was an electoral disaster for this party. It severely =
"undermined" our=20
party. It almost "destroyed" us, but for the majority Nader supporters =
among=20
us. <BR>The venom comes from you who use words such as =20
"trash".<BR><BR>Tony<BR><BR>P.S. And why quote from John Wayne, a =
war-monger?=20
Why not Mark Twain, an anti-imperialist?<BR><BR> =
--------------=20
Original message from "John Atkeison"<BR> =20
<john@atkeison.org>: --------------<BR><BR> Tony has =
been=20
removed from the email list of other committees for<BR> =
carrying=20
on his personal vendetta against Pat and disrupting work =
by<BR> =20
doing so. Maybe it is time for a "time out" here as =
well.<BR><BR> =20
Just one comment so the trash does not go unchallenged. How many=20
of<BR> us have spoken with a journalist only to find that =
what we=20
said was<BR> distorted? I happened to me about a year ago =
when I=20
was the manager<BR> of the Berg for Congress campaign. =
Then it=20
gets picked up by other<BR> outlets owned by the same =
people, and=20
god help you if it is a big<BR> one like Gannett or =
Associated=20
Press! So, who am *I* gonna believe-<BR> the Green who is =
bustin=20
their butt for us and has integrity and<BR> dedication, or =
the=20
corporate media that we all bash for good reason?<BR><BR> =
Pat and=20
the Maine Greens have built the GP with the largest =
per<BR> capita=20
Green registration in the country-- not NY, not CA, =
but<BR> Maine.=20
She is the public face of that Party. Why would someone =
want<BR> =20
to attack her and be so venomous?<BR><BR> Why are we are =
allowing=20
a few in our midst to undermine and destroy<BR> us? It has =
to=20
stop.<BR><BR> =20
=
John<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Peace-=
discussion=20
mailing list<BR>Peace-discussion@lists.gp-us.org<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://lists.gp-us.org/mailman/listinfo/peace-discussion"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://lists.gp-us.org/mailman/listinfo/peace-discussi=
on</A></BLOCKQUOTE>_______________________________________________=20
Peace-discussion mailing list Peace-discussion@lists.gp-us.org=20
http://lists.gp-us.org/mailman/listinfo/peace-discussion </BODY></HTML>
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